Today host Lori Boll speaks with Cath Brew. Cath is an artist who illustrates and educates about marginalised experiences for positive change – with a focus on identity, belonging and expat life.
She ‘s also a passionate advocate for open and honest conversations. Cath hosts Talk-Back Tuesday – a weekly Q&A on social media about LGBTQ+ issues and the podcast “˜Drawn to a Deeper Story ‘ which explores the lives that challenge us and the difficult conversations around them.
Cath will be speaking at the upcoming SENIA conference in the inclusive practices strand, helping all of us understand how we can better support our LGBTQ+ students.
Note: Today ‘s podcast lasts a few minutes longer than 30 minutes.
Cath is an artist who illustrates and educates about marginalised experiences for positive change – with a focus on identity, belonging and expat life.
She is a passionate advocate for open and honest conversations. Cath hosts Talk-Back Tuesday – a weekly Q&A on social media about LGBTQ+ issues and the podcast “˜Drawn to a Deeper Story ‘ which explores the lives that challenge us and the difficult conversations around them. Cath also works as a shamanic practitioner, helping people to find relief from their emotional wounds.
Transcribed by Kanako Suwa
[ Introduction music plays ]
Welcome to the SENIA Happy Hour with your host, Lori Boll. We know you ‘re busy so we bring you 1 hour of content in under thirty minutes, leaving you with time for a true happy hour.
Lori: Hi everyone, today I speak with Cath Brew. Cath is an artist who illustrates and educates about marginalized experiences for positive change with a focus on identity, belonging and expat life. She is also a passionate advocate for open and honest conversations. Cath hosts talk Back Tuesdays, which is a weekly Q&A on social media about LGBTQ+ issues and the podcast Drawn to a Deeper Story, which explores the lives that challenge us and the difficult conversations around them. Cath will be speaking today about her presentation at our upcoming SENIA conference and that presentation is in the inclusive practices strand and it’s going to help all of us understand how we can better support our LGBTQ+ students. As an educator who is constantly trying to be more inclusive of all students in international schools, I truly enjoyed our conversation today. And now onto the show.
Hi, Cath, and welcome to the podcast.
Cath: Thank you very much for having.
Lori: Me oh, you bet so.
Well, you really have an interesting background. You are an artist. You are an expatriate. You’re an author. And more. Can you give us a little background as to who you are and more about why you have the social media handles of DrawnToAStory?
Cath: Ooh, of course uhm well I’m an Australian and I live in Southern UK with my wife and.
DrawnToStory came about really as a way of me processing my experiences like so many of us who lived this this globally mobile life. Uhm, I got caught out by lots of things here where where.
There’s a sense of you almost expect things to be the same because the countries are so similar and it kept catching me out and I it, I realized that I needed to explore all these complex thoughts and feelings and I started to draw and I started to just have ways of processing things, and I suddenly realized that there were so many other people in the same boat. And illustration had been such a powerful thing for me that I decided to do a book and then that led on to kind of creating a business and and then having a network of people and and all the work that I that I do now and so now the main work that I do is that I illustrate and educate about marginalized experiences for positive change.
Lori: OK, well that’s that’s a lot. So we’ve got tons of listeners who are expatriates right? Let us know a little bit about your book, Living Elsewhere.
Cath: Yeah, well as I said it, it started out as a a strategy for me to help myself. I realized that I was badly depressed and I was not coping and I’d always drawn a bit. But drawing, I realized, gave me some relief from that state of mind. And and and I decided knowing that I needed a goal to work towards that, that I would do. I would create a book and I would launch it at the next FIGT conference and that I would give myself a year to do it. And it was a almost like a Wellness project getting myself. Well, of course, with the help of medication and all kinds of other stuff. But what I love about illustration is that the brain processes visual imagery 60,000 times faster than the written word, so it’s another whole level of communicating with people that the written word doesn’t doesn’t give, and so I did this book, that was. It’s essentially 100 cartoons of what it’s like to live outside of your home country, and people assume it’s funny and it’s like cartoon and light and there are some of those, but then you open it and a lot of people would be like smiling and then suddenly like, oh, Oh yes, that’s me. And there’s a a poignancy, and there’s a simplicity that comes through drawings that I find is incredibly powerful. All extraneous information is removed, and you can hone in on a point. Uhm, quite powerfully and and kind of get that off back to back, that thing it hits you in the chest. So that that’s the book really. And everything with Drawn To Story grew out of that because I realized there was this great need to be communicating these experiences, because, as you say, with your listeners, being a lot of them being expatriates that there’s so much great stuff that happens, but there’s an awful lot of difficult stuff that people don’t talk about, and I sometimes think just showing people that someone else sees them is really powerful and the book as a gift, it’s a kind of a small square book, it’s also a book that you can give to family members to say look, this is my life. This is what it’s like so that they really start to understand some of the stuff that you’re living with. When you, when you’re in those moments when you don’t know whether to laugh, to cry or do a WTF.
Lori: I’m fascinated by it, I’m going to pick up a copy for sure, and I mean and I was just thinking about, you know neurodiversity and how so many of our students who are on the autism spectrum response so well to comic strip conversations or visual information like that, and I wonder if it might support some of those, hose students who are new to the country.
Cath: Yeah, quite possibly. Yeah, I haven’t it it. It obviously wasn’t. Well, not obviously, but it wasn’t created with that in mind, it started out as more of my coping process, but what I have discovered is that it, regardless of neurodiversity that it’s, it’s multigenerational. So a lot of families I know they’ve sent me pictures of their kids reading it, but then also parents as well and I think. I, I think, for people who do respond better to who are different kind of different kind of learners, then and process information differently it it would absolutely be a an option.
Lori: Yeah, well I I can’t wait to read it.
Cath: Do you read? Do you read a cartoon book? I don’t know, everyone keeps calling me
and also like she, she’s written living elsewhere, I’m like would you write if it’s drawn?
I don’t know.
Lori: I think I think definitely you are an author for sure. So we’re absolutely delighted that you’re going to be speaking at our upcoming SENIA conference, of course. Your talk is entitled “Support at International School Staff in Making Schools More Welcoming for LGBTQ+ Families, Insights, Support, and Practical Tools”. It’s quite a mouthful.
Cath: It is quite mouthful. It could be shortened if needed.
Lori: But important, so it’s a topic I know many of us and many of our participants really want to learn more about. So can you tell me more about how you became so involved in this particular talk?
Cath: Umm, I realize I started to see a pattern forming that, uh, as a lesbian, I was getting a lot of questions from straight people about my life and about things to do with the community. And I realized that they were asking the same few questions over and over again, and I thought if this selection of people are asking it. There must be loads more people out there who want to know but the issue is that a lot of people don’t know who to talk to, how to find out. They don’t want to offend someone accidentally by saying the wrong thing, or that they think they don’t know someone in the community who they could ask, so they’re often left wondering, and I just thought actually, if we don’t have open conversations, nothing is going to change. If someone asks me a question and I shoot them down instantly, they’re never going to ask anyone ever again and nothing ever changes. As I keep saying and I have no problem with open, honest questions, nothing is going to be a threat to me.
So I decided to create as part of my social media in terms of marginalized experiences.
To create Talkback Tuesday, which I do every Tuesday on Instagram and and Facebook at 2:00 PM London time and the aim is that I talk about anything and everything to do with the LGBTQ plus community, and if there’s no questions, then I just talk about an issue. And I’m not shy. I mean, as you get to know me, you’ll note there’s not subjects I shy away from, so we’ve covered, uh, homosexuality in the Bible. We’ve covered kind of sexual practices. We’ve covered gender, we’ve covered transgendered stuff with like huge amount of subjects.
And I honestly mean any question is on the table and it’s been really exciting because I’ve had a not a lot of people are public about it. I get an awful lot of private messages. There’s a lot of straight people thanking me for it, but also a lot of LGBTQ+ people saying thank you, we can’t be visible because of our life circumstances but thank you for the work that you’re doing. So yeah, it’s important awareness raising. And important work that, uh, essentially, creates a safer world for everybody.
Lori: Oh yes, well we will put that in our show notes and make sure that people tune in. It must be so interesting and and so I don’t know, rewarding as well for you hosting that. You must get all sorts of questions but like you said, It’s it’s so nice to have someone to ask those questions too, rather than just being, stuck, you know?
Cath: Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Lori: Not understanding and then just taking your ideas as truth? Yes, not your, but you know the person asking.
Cath: Yeah, I know. Yes, yeah absolutely yeah. And also there’s there’s so much in the media now and you see stories and it’s always kind of salacious stuff or it’s cliches about what they think a gay man might look like or behave like. And I want to normalize it and and broaden people ‘s understandings and be visible, because if we’re not visible. We’re constantly seen as different. We need to be part of people’s lives. We need to be in TV shows as normal characters. We need to be the love song that’s written about in a new something that’s come out or in a magazine that, like the wholesome couple that gets photographed for advertising, talcum powder or something like we have to be there to just to normalize. And so part of my work is all about normalizing and talking, laughing as well, like I’m I’m not precious about any of it so.
Lori: My husband, I were just listening to a song yesterday on the radio is about this. It was really pretty song. It was like a I need a man who treats me like my father treats my Mom and I said I would, I think this song is so pretty but I think it be so much nicer if she said I need someone who instead, of a man. So you know.
Cath: Yeah, that that’s true. I get sick of that. Everything is very straight, very binary and my life. I mean it is changing but my life is not represented publicly and often when it is, in an ad on TV or there’s a same-sex couple in our TV show, they then get complaints about it. So like even when it does exist so and and I’m amazed that people don’t use it more for marketing because the pink pound as we call it in the UK and the the the Gay, Lesbian money. I guess we should say is a massive massive market and there’s an awful lot of money to be spent. And if people don’t like something, they won’t go there but if if they know you you are supported, then we’ll spend money with you.
Lori: Yeah, yeah, exactly so. Well, we obviously don’t want to give away your whole presentation for the SENIA conference, but I do have a few questions for you if you don’t mind, which I now know you don’t. What’s it like for a young person, or maybe not so young of a person to come out?
Cath: Well, that’s a bit like how long is a piece of string. Its circumstances can be massively varied, uhm? So on one hand you might have children who don’t need to come out because it is so obvious, they’ve been that child that everybody is always just known and they’re just waiting for the child to realize. And I I, I know people like that. So for the the people that do need to come out in that sense, what I would say is that it can be and often it is quite a terrifying thing because all you want is to be loved and accepted for who you are and before you come out, assuming that you’re in control of coming out, you will have spent years, months, if not years, observing the people around you. And what their attitudes are, how they behave when the subject of homosexuality comes up, or if there’s something on TV, the kind of comments that might come out of someone’s mouth as you’re sitting there or watching together. And that person will be looking to see who is safe to come out to so if. If there’s a parent who’s sitting on the couch, watching TV, and every time a gay man comes on, those flag moth, that child is not going to come out to that parent willingly and it makes it very, very very difficult. Uhm, so there’s a it can be incredibly scary, because there’s always the just what if I’m not accepted and it’s not like you’ve just got red hair or a tattoo, or what it like”¦ Those are things that you can change. This is a fundamental part of your identity so when parents do reject children, it’s absolutely crushing and when people then come out, also when they’re older. It can be kind of doubly painful, because if they’re older they’ve often got families, marriages, kids and it’s not to say that they’ve suddenly become gay. They’ve made out known all along, and they’ve tried to suppress it so when people come out, it can often take a while because we know what society thinks of us broadly and you end up often having an internal homophobia of not liking who you are because society tells you that you’re not acceptable. You don’t fit the norm, that kind of thing.
So I I mean, I remember when I realized, and I remember thinking Oh no, oh, Oh, I have to deal with this like it. It’s something that you’ve actually got to work out, whether you like yourself, whether the people that you love are gonna like you love you, whether you can cope with this life. What does it like? What does all of this mean? So it’s a massive massive thing for that to happen, and also I’m and I’m not just talking about gay and lesbian and bi. I’m talking about transgender people. I know of transgender people who have come out later in life when they’ve got families and they’ve known since they were like 6 or 7 and they’ve had like 50-60 years of being someone else while hiding this other person.
And if you imagine the effort that goes into trying to be someone else, it it shows. How significant it is of what, why people are afraid to come out and and what their, that hesitation because it’s just, yeah, but what if then someone might not love me so it’s yeah it can be blue and terrifying. And and also it’s just the relief of getting it out. Like if you’ve lived with something for so long. I mean, I remember when I told my brother. He said to me it was it was just wonderful, but he just said oh thank God that’s all it is, he said. I was”¦ He said we were really worried about you. He said you haven’t been yourself, we weren’t sure what was wrong.
And and I was putting on weight. I was getting depressed. I was not happy and I’d known for, like properly known for about five years and and in that time span I was unwell as a result of it and and the relief when I could come out and be open and honest about who I was was huge and but for the person coming out, there’s also that there’s the duality of the huge relief of suddenly getting it out but then also having to kind of hold back a bit sometimes because it can be complete news to the family member and you need to allow to give them time to get used to it as well so it can be a bit of a dicey time.
Lori: And and then, like you said, it’s it’s the coming out piece. But then it’s everything in the future that you had fear and anxiety about. What’s next?
Cath: Yeah, and and that’s often it. If it’s a parent as well, that’s often the concern that I hear from parents is, if they’re positive and they’re OK with it, it’s like we love you. There’s no problem but we just worry about your future that you’re going to be OK because they know as well what society thinks.
Lori: Society, Yep, exactly well. Here’s a question about coming out. Is it important to come out? I mean, as straight people you never have to.
Cath: No you don’t.
Lori: I like stand up and identify I’m straight. So tell me a little about about that.
Cath: It’s yeah, it’s important because the straight the heteronormative world assumes that you’re straight, so you have to constantly people talk about coming out as though it’s a one time thing. It’s a coming out on a daily basis because every interaction that you have with systems with organizations with people, they assume that your partner is someone of the opposite sex.
So I might be chatting to someone, a complete stranger in a coffee shop and I’ll say, Oh my other half does this. I’ll use gender neutral language. They then say oh, what does he do as like, ah, do I correct them? If I don’t, it’s like well, it doesn’t really matter. I don’t. There’s a stranger I don’t want to tell them, but actually, if I don’t tell them in my lying to myself and actually, why am I lying to myself? Right like? Why shouldn’t I be able to? And it’s like, well I want to, but is this a safe space? If he has a problem with it, am I going to be. OK, like this is a million and one questions going on in your head every day, at every instance, and then if you had, I mean for me, I’m self-employed, I’ve had jobs where you’re meeting a client and you talk to them and it’s like if I and you’re not coming out for the sake of it, you’re mentioning it in any way like you would say my husband, if I come out to him or her, am I going to lose this job legally officially? That’s not allowed to happen, but we know how the world works. We know how things can be made difficult for you, so coming out with pride and with authenticity is really, really powerful to be living a comfortable life where you own who you are and people see you. And celebrate you in the same way that they would straight person. It’s it’s massive. It’s it’s all about identity and and expatriates will know about identity and how how big we are on things like that so.
I mean a, perfect example is, a number of years ago, someone said to me, could you please describe yourself? I said 5 words in five words. But I only managed to get out a few and I just instantly said redheaded Australian lesbian and I was like, oh that that surprised me. Where was woman? ’cause I’m a feminist. Where was all these other things and I realized it was the things that had been used against me. And I was trying to reclaim them, so coming out and saying this is who I am. Look at me, see me, it’s it’s. It’s really important.
Lori: Thank you for that. As a trusted adult, what do you think is the best way someone can react when someone does come out to us or them?
Cath: Well, I would always say be positive. Say like just welcome it with open arms and actually say. I mean it depends on who the person is. I I mean, trusted adult can become like someone outside of the family or it can be even a family member. Uhm, but I would just say to someone that’s a wonderful, congratulations, love you as you are like I just want you to be happy you’ve got our full support that, as like it’s a parental kind of thing. If it’s not a family member and it’s so in this context we’re talking to you, it’s someone in the school equally, I would say that’s fantastic, congratulations.
But what I would add is if someone is a teacher that there’s a level of pastoral care that a teacher has in a school environment for for students, and it might also be good to say to a student, do your parents know? Because then you know very quickly what that home situation is going to be like and whether the child might be coming to you for support because they’re not welcome at home because of if they’ve told apparent and and and checking, particularly if someone is trans. But also I mean. Anyone really is, are you OK? Are you safe? Do your parents know? Have you told anyone else and and also what what do you need from me? How do you want me to help you? Because when someone is a minor and that kind of school setting where you do have responsibilities. I, I always think there’s another level of inquiry that that should probably happen.
Also, so that you don’t accidentally out that child to their parents. If they don’t know so, uhm.
Lori: Well, that kind of leads me into my next question. So as International School educators, how can we better support not just our students, but their families.
Cath: There’s a number of really simple ways, uhm, very simple thing is, is the use of language. If there’s any forms that the school has, it often would be a name of mother name and father on a form. Let’s change that to parent number #1, parent #2 or come talk about instead of saying to child, what does Mommy do? What does Daddy do like? What does your parent do? It’s using neutral language. It’s things like being aware that same sex couples who have children, the parents may not have the equal level of of rights in that country in terms of visas, so I know of couples where one parent is considered to be the birth parent and therefore the other one doesn’t have as many rights, so they will be in a country on tourist visa, while the birth parent will be there on the parental visa, so they can do a lot of stresses around renewal times visa, so just being aware of what might be going on in someone family.
I would also say never assume, I said this before, but never assume that parents know their child is LGBTQIA and really, there’s kind of a, there’s probably two other things that that are really easyis that when talking to children, like I said, don’t don’t be saying what does Daddy do? What does Mommy do? Because that then child, that child then has to say I don’t have a daddy so then, you’re reaffirming their difference all the time. It’s it’s putting awkwardness and putting issues onto a child who in their home environment. Life is normal when they go outside of that, suddenly they’re they’re coming up against the norms of society. Shall we say that create that create tensions, but one of the things that I think is particularly good for families, but also for raising awareness more broadly is to show for the school and for teachers to show that you are inclusive. So say it on your website. Say we are an inclusive school. Celebrate coming out days have celebrate, acknowledge the Transgender Day of of Awareness. In in any marketing material have same sex couples in your marketing materials. To start a LGBTQ club for kids at the school. There’s so many different things that can be done, just showing that you’re there and and supporting and also things like don’t have Daddy-daughter dances.
Lori: Yeah, I was just that. That’s what I was thinking of Is is all these holidays actually that we celebrate Mother’s Day and Father’s Day? And and yeah, how that kind of normalizes the differences and we don’t want to do that so.
Cath: Yeah, and also that that often has a big impact on adopted children, particularly transracial adoptions. It’s just. It doesn’t have to change it for everybody in that sense, but it’s just shifting things very slightly so everybody can fit basically.
Lori: So important, thank you, so I’m assuming you’ll be giving us some definitions during the conference of all the acronyms you just, you just mentioned IA. So from my reading recently, it’s LGBTQIA+. So can you just give us IA? Just, just for today.
Cath: Yes, what I would just say is the LGBTQIA it it depends on where you are in the world.
Actually what which country uses. Some people just do LGBTQ or LGBTQ+lots of variations, which makes it even more complex.
Cath: But yes, the I stands for . Intersex and the A generally stands for asexual or ally. And Ally is straight people and and cisgendered people. So some people, some people in the community don’t like the A’s ally because it’s like we’ve got our own acronym like just go away, let usjust have something that sells. But yes, it’s generally asexual or ally, and the plus is then anyone else that does that is not a heterosexual or cisgendered, and I’ll just say I’m using the word cisgender, but just so people know cisgendered is it’s CIS gendered and it’s someone who is living the same. I speak, sex that they were assigned at birth. Right, yeah, yeah. So born woman living as a woman.
Lori: Yeah, well, you know. Just as an aside, I’m a 52 year old straight woman and just through the years has have watched the the letters grow and and and then you know the the the difference between sexuality and gender. I mean I had to have all that explained to me by some younger people who could help me through it because it it isn’t just known.
Cath: Yeah, yeah. No, it’s not.
Lori: But it’s, but it’s important that we get out there and learn.
Cath: It it is and and you’re not alone in that. Like so many people don’t know the difference between sex and gender. Sex is biological, gender is social social. Right? So it’s there’s there’s. There’s so much. It’s variation in all these terms, s come to my talk. And you’ll, you know how to speak LGBT.
Lori: Exactly well on our last kind of like hot button topic I think come we talk a lot now about pronouns and many people are now putting their pronouns in their email signatures. It’s a newish pronoun that, well, not really new, but is, that’s being used to describe people is they / them so just”¦ can you help us understand why pronouns are so important?
Cath: Yeah, I think a perfect example is. If I just start calling you Luke. It’s very nice talking to you today, Luke. Uh, I’m I’m surprised that your name is Luke, ’cause you actually look like a woman to me, and it’s,,, I make a bit of a joke and that might not really make sense to people, but it’s. It’s how we are spoken to every single day. So if you imagine as a woman as a straight woman. For tomorrow, whatever next day, everywhere you go, people refer to you as a man.
They use, he hears they call you Luke. You start to feel, I mean if you if you think about that now in your body what that feels like I’m, I’m sure there’s a level of discomfort, It’s not kind of sitting comfortably and when you’re constantly called something that you don’t feel that you are,
It’s physically painful.
So if you identify as gender neutral or transgender or genderqueer, whatever way you identify. It’s really important to be able to feel safe and to have a space to exist now, a lot of straight people don’t see why it’s important, but what I would say to people is the fact that you have a choice about whether you choose to put it shows that you there is a privilege there that.
You it doesn’t iImpact your life. It’s not a negative thing for you and and the reason that people are starting to put it that who are straight, who would put she/her,I mean he/his is really powerful form of being an ally because it normalizes it so some people have said, well, why can’t, if you want to use it they then you just use it. That’s fine, and on one level yes, but on another level, why do people who are on the outside? Why do they always have to be the one that leads the fight and then people are tired, as are margins. And inclusivity is about the people who have the power and the majority of inviting a space for others to come into. So if straight people do it as well it shows, firstly it shows. Other people like gender neutral people or people who aren’t binary. That that person gets it that that is potentially a safe space and and it also it’s about visibility. It’s about normalizing. It’s about showing that there’s all these other options now.
In Western society, we talk about binary as male and female. You look into other cultures, in other lands, spiritual parts as well. There’s a lot of other genders that have existed for a very, very long time, and people think this is a new thing and it’s trendy and it’s just, but it’s not. It’s a varieties of gender, have been around for a very, very long time. Yeah, so people need constant that, well, with the with the, They them I know that.
Lori: At the beginning, when we first started hearing about this as a someone who follows grammatical rules to the TI really, really struggled with the they/them, Excuse me because you know that that’s a plural, that it was more than one person and yeah, and then I.
Cath: Yeah, I know I was the same. Yeah I was the same.
Lori: Read an article of a, I think a grandmother wrote it about her, her grandchild, that preferred, they them, and this grandmother was like, yeah, I was the same way. Get over it and I was like yeah get over it, yeah.
Cath: Yeah, absolutely, but this is the thing, bottom line. So yeah, for, for someone who doesn’t need to do it. It’s the easiest thing. It’s the tiniest thing to do, but for the person who needs it, it makes an enormous difference. It’s like 1 less difference that we have between each other. One less thing that that makes someone feel other. It’s yeah. It’s really really important and and I know the people in my life that are they them’s. I mean I, I refer to her as my wife and I say her because that’s what we, she, ny wife says it doesn’t matter to me what you call me but but, When they go and talk to other people, it’s always I’m a they/them. Right and and and people choose how they they present themselves and and the other day my wife was filling out a form a government form and they had male, female, and nonbinary. And they said to me it was such a relief. It just, it’s not that internal disease or that discomfort. It makes a massive difference. I cannot stress that enough. I love I I hope. So it’s a minor thing, but it’s massive.
Lori: I I hope if people take well, I mean there’s so many things to take away from this podcast today, but one of them is to go back to their schools and work on that paperwork. It’s something that I think many of us haven’t haven’t thought about so, No, no and it’s”¦
Cath: I mean when we got married, we made the photographer, we had to fill in the form that said name of groom, name of bride. So I was the bride and my wife is the groove, but that was a long. I mean that was 14 years ago and it’s just not good enough now, like people need to to to do that. And in in my talk at the conference. I will be giving a lot more detail and kind of practical skills and things that people can use to to be able to do this. So you’re not you’re not out there on your own, having to work out what to do.
Lori: I love it. Well, I honestly can’t wait. I’m really looking forward to your talk. So thank you.
Cath: Fantastic, I’m looking forward to it, thank you.
Lori: Well, thanks for joining us today. I truly did learn a lot from you and I know I know our participants at the conference are are just anxious and ready, ready to learn from you as well.
Cath: Yeah fantastic. I look forward to meeting everyone.
Lori: Thanks, Cath.
Cath: Yeah, thank you.
Thanks for stopping in to SENIA Happy Hour, don ‘t forget to head over to SENIAinternational.org/podcasts and check out our show notes from the discussion today. We at SENIA hope you ‘re enjoying these podcasts. There ‘s so much to explore and we ‘re at the very beginning. So feel free to drop us a note and let us know what you ‘d like to hear more about during your next SENIA Happy Hour. Until then”¦ Cheers!