Transcript
Lori Boll (sheher): Well, hi, Michelle. Welcome back to the podcast.
Michelle Winner: Great to see you again, Laurie, as always.
Lori Boll (sheher): Yeah, well, we love over here at SENIA. We love and adore your work. You’ve been a keynote speaker for us. You’ve been on our podcast several times. You’ve given raffle prizes to our audience at our various conferences. So thank you for everything. So the last time that we interviewed you told us all about social thinking. And just for our. Our listeners who may not have had an opportunity to learn about it, can you just give us a brief overview of what it is?
Michelle Winner: Yeah. So social thinking is key. Can be useful for individuals who are four years old or older, from childhood all the way through adulthood. The prerequisite is that the student has really solid language skills and solid intelligence. Because we’re a language based methodology, we use a lot of language to explain how the social world works, to help people learn how to work better within that world based on their own goals.
Lori Boll (sheher): Right.
Michelle Winner: So social thinking is different from behaviorism because we spend a lot of time exploring why we do what we do as humans and then how we do it. And then a big component of this is social observation, really noticing what other people are doing, which is something that the neurotypical mind does somewhat intuitively. And then I work with clients, they can be mature adults working in technology and not have great social observation, not understand things that we take for granted. One of the things we do a lot is avoid assumption and try to figure out who it is we’re working with and how they’re understanding aspects, how they interpret information, how they’re responding to information, including emotional regulation and all of that. Good stuff.
Lori Boll (sheher): Great. And just a clarification, when you say solid intelligence, even if an individual might be non speaking,we should not assume they have low cognition” . Yeah.
Michelle Winner: It’s fine to be a non speaking individual as long as they have solid receptive language. And you know, obviously we’re hoping that person has a very strong communication system that they can use.
Lori Boll (sheher): Yeah, super. Okay. Well, we’re doing something a little different today. We’re having our podcast be available on video for our member schools and audio for our regular listeners, which is great. So you’re going to be describing one of the tools that you use within social thinking and it’s the problem solving framework. So what inspired you to develop this particular framework?
Michelle Winner: So the framework is called solving problems before they become problems or solving a problem I’m experiencing right now. And one of the things that we try to do here is really understand our clients point of view and what they’re struggling with. And one of the things that I found a number of my very smart, sometimes gifted clients were struggling with was social problem solving and sometimes any type of problem solving. So I took that and started breaking it down into discernible parts to really learn about the problem solving process rather than just go figure it out. Because too often when we have students who have solid, a strong language, people are like, well, just go figure that out. And it’s like, well, that’s the problem our students need or adults need us to break it down.
Michelle Winner: So I’ll explain the different categories that we have and it starts with number one is how do I know I have a problem? Or list ways you know that you have a problem. And so for example, one that I’ll go through as an example was a girl who I’ve been following for many years and now she’s 17 and in high school and she has some significant learning challenges. But over the years she’s been improving quite a bit in terms of how she’s taking information. So for her, number one was, well, actually let me go through all the categories and then I’ll come back and share how with you. So it starts with how do I know I have a problem? Then the next is describe the problem. And then the third is whose problem is it?
And I’ll come back and explain why I thought think that’s important to do. And and then the next is a series of three boxes that provide choices. So choice one, choice two, choice three about how you can handle this problem. But each choice has an arrow that connects to a box below because for whatever choice you have, the arrow indicates the consequence of that choice or what happens next. The word consequence is considered, has a negative innuendo, but it’s really just about what happens next. A consequence is not always a negative thing. So below each box we’ve got oh, there we go, these choices. And then you fill out the first choice is usually the not so good choice that you might think to make. And then choice two and three are considered the better choices or good choices.
And then below each we have the consequence. And then following that we’ve got now that you’ve listed out a not so good choice followed by two good choices to solve this problem and you’ve listed the consequences. Now number six asks you to choose which of these choices that you’re going to implement based on your discovery about how to what’s going on with this problem. And, and then number seven is okay, let’s get started. So a number of times when I’m doing this with a student in school, they may be working with me in a pull out session or with a counselor. And sorry for all this noise.
Lori Boll (sheher): Turn my, can’t hear it.
Michelle Winner: So then it says when will I start to apply my choice to solve my problem? So for example, I had a student who was somewhat selectively mute and he really needed to talk to his teacher in this specific class. And so he was working with me on when he could talk to that teacher. You know, when he’s, when is he going to start? He had decided the next day. And then to whom do I need to talk to help solve the problem? He named the teacher. And then when and where will I talk to them? That’s because our students, when you say okay, great, you’re figuring this out now just go do it. They actually need to really get the executive functioning going to really map out the time, place, when will I do it, where will I do it?
And even what will I say to that person so that they create their own mental script. Because that’s what a lot of us do in problem solving when we’re stressed is we actually go in our mind our metacognitive thinking, and we start planning out, okay, here’s how I’m going to handle it. This is what I’m going to say. This is what I’m going to do. I anticipate how someone might react to it. And so then it says, you know, number 10 is what will I say to help others understand or discuss the problem in a way that likely makes them feel okay. So this encourages students to stay away from shaming or blaming someone else that they are owning their own problem. Then it goes to the next part, which I’m likely to feel some anxiety or stress talking to this person.
What’s my strategy for managing my anxiety? Then 12 is once I work to resolve my problem, evaluate my success, does the problem feel less big? Because when we problem solve, we’re actually, even though we call it problem solving, we’re not necessarily completely remediating the problem. We’re just using strategies to be able to contain that problem and perhaps have it work in our better interest. That’s the framework for this. Every step of this has been developed because the individuals I work with really needed to have it broken down that much. Obviously, when you’re stressed out, you’re not mentally planning as well. And so providing those steps helps with. With this process.
Lori Boll (sheher): Yeah, you know, the first step asks students to recognize whether they even have a problem and what it is. And I’m just curious, why is starting with that awareness so critical, especially for kids who may struggle with perspective?
Michelle Winner: Yeah, well, one of the things that started this sheet was, you know, I’ve worked with a lot of clients over the years, and my sweet spot is working with adolescents through adulthood. I’ve worked with preschoolers in all the ages, but when I get to this adolescent age, and if you’re familiar with adolescents, there is a tendency to not own their problem and instead blame it on someone else. I really started using this language of how do I know I have a problem? To one put it on them to be aware that this is their problem. And then getting to the next part, what’s the problem? And then the whole reason I put is this problem, one I need to help solve was because a number of our students have support system.
They have, whether it’s an aide or a teacher or one one that’s helping them. And when that happens, so often the adult steps in and does all the problem solving and they take over all of this. So I really wanted to word it to Keep that person who’s helping to be helping that person figure out their problem rather than them fill it out for them. So that’s a lot of why I have the I language in there.
Lori Boll (sheher): Yeah, that’s great. I also noticed that there’s a lot about flexible thinking in this. So do you do some pre teaching on that flexible thinking ahead of time before?
Michelle Winner: Well, actually, I don’t in the sense that the problem solving think sheet actually pushes you into that. Flexible thinking provides the framework of three choices and whatever problem you have, we always work with individuals through completing those three choices and then the three consequences. And so it’s built in to that system.
Lori Boll (sheher): Got it.
Michelle Winner: And because like one is the good choice, two are the good choices. Once a not so good choice, I just always want our folks to know that for whatever not so good choice, there’s always more than one good choice that you can make. So all of that is just encouraging flexibility and thinking and awareness that rather than get stuck on. Stuck on focusing on the negative, how can we push you to start thinking about the positive as well?
Lori Boll (sheher): Yeah. Okay, great. Should we go through an example? Sure. All right, let me share one. Is this a good one to start with?
Michelle Winner: Sure. Okay, so this was one I did like two weeks ago with this gal who I’ve been following since she was about 5 or 6 years old. And now she’s 17. And so I check in with her from time to time and I just saw her. She lives a distance from my office. So anyhow, one of the things that surprised me is she is not a cognitive sharpshooter. She’s got some thinking weaknesses. But it was remarkable to me how she was actually able to do this think sheet without me or her father who was there with us doing it for her. So everything written down on the sheet was actually her naturally generating these answers. So it starts with her think sheet says list ways in which you know you have a problem for a future or existing problem.
Michelle Winner: The thing sheet you guys may have, the blank one says, how do I know I have a problem? So her response to that was, she’s not doing the work. And her aide, I blacked off the name, But I put Ms. H is there to help. So she’s describing the problem. She doesn’t like biology, but she has to take it. Her name’s Georgia and whose problem is it? And she wrote her, she said, georgia, it’s my problem. And then list two to three choices to help you solve that problem. So the not so good choice and then Georgia’s like, well, this is the bad choice. So she said those words, don’t accept help. And then we immediately go down to the consequence of that. If you don’t help, accept help, then what happens next? And she says, in trouble, my phone is taken away.
Michelle Winner: And then I asked how she felt and she said she was mad. It’s like, okay, so is there what’s a good choice for that same situation that you need help from your aide to get through this part. And she said, good choice is to try to listen and concentrate. Look up and look at the teacher. And she said that all on her own. I went over this with her mom later because her mom wasn’t there. And she’s like, she said that? And I said, yeah, imagine she’s really embodying all the strategies people have been saying to her over the years. So what was what happens next? She says she gets to keep her phone and she might learn something.
Lori Boll (sheher): Bonus.
Michelle Winner: Yeah. Three, the other good choice is let Ms. Havali, her aide, help by helping to explain what’s going on. And then Georgia’s saying she’s supposed to be learning. So then Ms. Amali says, Good job and George is learning so great. So she’s connecting all those dots. And then we skipped answering number six. In terms of what choices but what strategies, concepts, frameworks or skills do you need to utilize? And she says talk to encourage herself to work, get it done so she can get free time. So she’s really getting that idea, which is great. And then you don’t have a second page on that one. So sometimes I have a two page problem solving sheet. But she stopped there and dad was really pleased with her being able to see this whole flow.
Michelle Winner: And that’s one of the things we really want to see is sometimes you’re filling out the sheet, the person’s not flowing like they really don’t know what to do next, which is also important, right? It’s not that everyone’s going to succeed 100%. And when they don’t know how to do something, like you were saying flexible thinking. If they were stuck on the not so good choice and couldn’t think of any good choices, we work there on think flexibly and we use that language to think about what a good choice is. And if they can’t figure it out, sometimes we give examples. To be honest, in using this sheet over the many years that I created it ago, I just haven’t had many students who haven’t been able to fill out the Boxes because it provides such clear flow for them.
Lori Boll (sheher): Yeah, that’s great. All right. How do you think they are able to predict the consequences so well from this?
Michelle Winner: Well, when I say so often the word consequence is written there, but often I replace it with what happens next and I say what happens next and then they’re working through that in their mind. So it’s not something that I’ve had people not be able to figure out that they’ve just. I developed this when I worked in a high school in the 1990s and I was working with kids who were as a speech pathologist who was super interested in social cognition, which includes autism, adhd, all this stuff. The counselors started just giving me more and more students to work with that had been confusing to them. And so I created this problem solving sheet in that process. And just really there were some students who were making really bad choices. The police were involved.
Michelle Winner: And we started just really thinking through some different ways to think about this and then started using this sheet more and more with just so many students. Because who doesn’t experience a problem? It’s a very neurotypical thing to do, is have problems that we need to think through how to solve problems.
Lori Boll (sheher): Yeah, which is great. Executive functioning, being able to do that. Well, let’s look at another example.
Michelle Winner: Okay, what’s the next one? All right, so this one involved some safety issues. And this is a young adult who is very gifted, but outside of his house, he shines with incredible talents inside the house. The mom says he just doesn’t get it. And one of the ways I explain that I’ve had this happen a lot is when our folks have a very clear role. In this case, this guy is a tremendous musician. When they are put in that role, they can do some really nice self regulation management and excel to the public. And when you come home, what’s your role? Well, your role is social, emotional, and that’s very flaky. Right. It’s constantly based on the people, the situation, the emotions, how you’re feeling, how other people are feeling.
Michelle Winner: And so what I often find is that there’s a number of folks I work with who really struggle to self regulate in the home, even though they’re self regulating in their different roles outside of the home. And that was certainly the case of this person. So how do I know I have a problem based on others actions not honoring the rules that he knows are in place for him in the house? And so what’s the problem? So N opened dad’s office and Took a bunny without permission. The bunnies are in cages and they’re the sisters bunnies. And, and he knew one, the rules were to not go in dad’s office and two, he was supposed to stay away from the bunnies and he could only hold the bunnies with permission of his sisters.
Michelle Winner: So he went into dad’s office, kind of kicked it open, pulled the cage out, then took the bunny, knowing this was going to cause some havoc in the family, that the children, the sisters who were teenagers, were not going to be happy. So the not so good choice is taking the bunny without permission. And the consequence for that, what happens is family havoc. And we certainly had that right. This was a case where I was consulting on a, with a person who lives a distance. So I was spending the night, I saw him one afternoon and then I saw him the next morning for a number of hours. And I got this email about since we last saw you here has been what’s going on, which was the day before. All right, so what are good choices?
Michelle Winner: Well, this guy is running a music business and so he can email his business with his free time emails related to his business. And the consequence for that is his business grows and his clients increase. The next choice is practices music as well as go to evening prayer. And in the consequence is enjoy music, feel calm and maintain a calm atmosphere. And so when it came to listing his choice, which one he was going to would choose if he could really step away and do this again and it would be spend some time emailing for his business to encourage the growth of his client base.
Michelle Winner: And so we didn’t go further than that on this, but it was really helpful for him to really look at this is that executive functioning flexibility that his brain can get locked into at time a, A, a state of stirring up the family. Sure, he could use his time in a more meaningful way and create less havoc if he’s able to focus on things that are productive for himself and actually lead to his own success.
Lori Boll (sheher): And did you get a follow up from the family on how this.
Michelle Winner: This is one of our folks who struggles with seeking alternatives to chaos and so working with the family on recommendations. He’s in his young twenties and what. And he’s so successful in his life outside of the home. And the question is, should he still be living at home given that he’s able to make his own money and succeed in such a way. So spoke to the parents about alternatives. Spoke to him about alternatives and just, you know where he is.
Lori Boll (sheher): Yeah.
Michelle Winner: So I am going to Be following up with this family. But right now it’s the high holidays.
Lori Boll (sheher): Yeah. Well, okay, last example.
Michelle Winner: All right, here’s a classic. One teacher, a low grade. What’s the problem? I’m not feeling good about that. Is the problem one I need to solve? Yes. So what was this? Not so good choice? Getting mad. And because he’s mad, he feels righteous so he doesn’t do anything differently. Kind of blames the teacher. Choice two, read the teacher’s comments. Try to adjust my writing based on that feedback. Choice three, have teacher look over my paper before I turn it in. And the consequence for that would get feedback to help me do better to adjust my writing further, you know, if needed. So which choices did this person choose? 2 and 3. To really take time to read the comments and evaluate the feedback. Get started right away. To whom do I need to talk. To talk to solve this problem? My teacher.
Michelle Winner: When can I talk to them? In class. Where?
Lori Boll (sheher): Class.
Michelle Winner: And what will I say to try to discuss my problem in a way that likely feels the teacher helps the teacher feel okay. This person said, I want to improve my writing. Thanks for your feedback. Then 11 is I’ll likely feel some stress talking or anxiety talking to my teacher. What’s my strategy? And it’s to remind himself that my teacher wants me to succeed with that. He felt armed with being able to handle that. That’s one of the things we work on quite a bit is anxiety. Because all humans experience anxiety. It’s not a problem to have anxiety. It when you have compelling anxiety, though, it’s being able to reconcile that we can both feel anxiety and do productive things for ourself simultaneously and not let the anxiety be a stopper.
Lori Boll (sheher): Yeah, I really. That question 10, I think is it just stands out to me because I think that’s a step we often forget about when we’re working with. Sorry, I’m going to start again. It’s number 11. Number 11 is what stands out to me, the whole stress and anxiety. Because we do often have that stress when we’re talking to people about a problem and we don’t teach our students how to have those conversations and what to say or brainstorm with them what to say.
Michelle Winner: Yeah, it’s so interesting. Like all humans have anxiety and yet we don’t talk about anxiety.
Lori Boll (sheher): Right.
Michelle Winner: You know, in the class or how. What are our strategies for managing it? And it’s, you know, it’s a very human response to feeling like sometimes just pushed to excel beyond what we’re, you know, comfortable with. But that’s what school’s all about, right? Is teaching you new strategies, new ideas. So the idea that you should always be comfortable in your learning would suggest you’re not learning very much. You know, that school actually challenge us and get us to think differently. And it’s okay to be anxious, but that’s not a stopping place.
Lori Boll (sheher): Well, and I think about whenever I’m going to have anxious conversation that’s going to cause me anxiety or I’m not quite sure how to deal with it, I’ll. I’ll reach out to some of my partners at work for some advice, you know, and so we do that as adults, but we don’t think often about supporting our students.
Michelle Winner: I don’t think we even let kids know enough about. I remember when I was the early years of my public speaking and I would always be anxious, you know, and then just that metacognitive inner coach. But what’s important about that inner coach is that a number of our, the students I work with don’t have it at all. They only have a negative voice in their head. I was working this week with a very successful guy in his 30s in the sense that he’s gotten some big degrees and works in a big job. But I. He came in to work with me and he goes, I’m a disappointment to people. And like that even come from. Because not only does a, you know, working in his job, he is a very anxious person.
Michelle Winner: And so he’s been working on that, but he is succeeding in his job. He is new to that job. So it’s expected that he’s not fabulous at it right out the gate. But then also he has three different hobbies he does on the weekends. And I’m like, who does that? I said, most people just go stream or play video games and you’re doing these really cool things to help the environment and. But his summary of himself was, I’m disappointing people. And I’m like, okay, we need to get that positive voice in there. And he’s like, I don’t have that.
Lori Boll (sheher): Yeah. That kind of leads to my almost last question. So when a student works through the framework but doesn’t get the outcomes that they hope for, what’s the best way for adults to guide them through that reevaluation process?
Michelle Winner: So that’s kind of at the very bottom of the sheet. Like, once I’ve worked to resolve my problem, evaluate my success, it’s number 12. Is the problem feeling less big? So if the problem’s less big, then you’re working through Problem solving. But sometimes problems have morphed into whole different problems like we’ve solved towards this one. But oh, now that I realize this problem solving strategy, I realize really what the problem should be. This. So we pull out another sheet and we just keep working through that process because problems do morph and change. What seemed like a big problem wasn’t such a big problem or they misunderstood the problem.
Michelle Winner: And so it’s really about just trying to get clarity and break it down and allowing for like you can get halfway through one of these sheets and realize the student or the adult may realize, you know what, this isn’t actually my problem. Now I realize what my real problem is.
Lori Boll (sheher): Right.
Michelle Winner: So what that means is the person helping the individual has to stay flexible. And it’s not all on the student to stay flexible as we have to be able to switch gears if we realize that this person is heading in a different direction. And that’s part of working with individuals is being able to stay in tune with what’s making sense to them rather than insisting that they need to follow what’s making sense to us.
Lori Boll (sheher): Yeah, well Michelle, that’s one of your many strategies. And what I love about every single one of your strategies is that they’re simple and you know, sometimes it’s shocking to look at a sheet like that and just see how simply designed and laid out it is and how incredibly effective it is by just following it.
Michelle Winner: Talking to my colleague, Dr. Pam Crook, we work together on everything and were just talking about how we use the problem solving sheet so regularly and effectively and then people start using it and it they don’t feel like they can do it well. So again, I think it’s about step away, allow flexibility, allow the individual to express themselves. Don’t try to control what they’re saying and really try to hear them. And I think, you know, the problem solving sheets been around for a long time, has helped a lot of people. But it’s not just about the person who’s filling it out. It’s so much about us being able just open to the ideas that person’s expressing.
Lori Boll (sheher): Yeah, well, how can our listeners learn more about your other strategies and tools?
Michelle Winner: So I have a website, socialthinking.com and from the very beginning of our work, I’ve always been a big believer in providing free stuff and not making everything have to be a paid for endeavor. So to that end, if you go into our online training section, you’ll see webinars and all webinars are free. You’ll See that we’ve posted articles and then we also have. I believe we still have a free stuff page where we have think sheets. We call them think sheets rather than worksheets because we’re breaking information down to think about it more clearly. So I think the user, if you’re new to our information, you can find a lot of free information on our site without having to pay anything to help you get going.
Lori Boll (sheher): And just as a former attendee myself, if any of you ever get the opportunity to see Michelle in person, please take that opportunity. You will not be disappointed.
Michelle Winner: Thank you. There’s very limited opportunities now with all the funding cuts.
Lori Boll (sheher): Yes, I know.
Michelle Winner: We give what we call live stream trainings where people do pay for those and as well as free webinars. So there’s a lot of different ways to get information with us still. But the face to face in the United States is unless a school invites us to come then.
Lori Boll (sheher): Right.
Michelle Winner: Very different game these days.
Lori Boll (sheher): Yeah. Well, Michelle, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for teaching us this new tool and I’m sure many people will be starting to use it soon.
Michelle Winner: Thank you for the invitation and good luck to you all
